Dear All:

I fly a G102 out of Alliance, Nebraska, for most of the year. Other
than a daily commercial shuttle flight from Denver, there is almost no
traffic at the airport or in the area where I soar. There are no
other gliders at all. However, from time to time I'll come into
contact with powered traffic, mostly casual fliers, crop dusters, and
hunters.

A couple times a year I take my glider to other locations, usually in
areas with a lot more traffic both in terms of other gliders,
commercial aircraft and general aviation. I've taken my glider to Air
Sailing, Boulder, and Moriarity, and hope to take it to Minden,
Parowan and other locations in the near future.

My G102 is in excellent shape, and I've put quite a bit into it. With
two kids in college and one who just entered third grade (good
spacing), this glider will be with me for awhile . . . at least 10
years.

I'm looking at installing either a transponder or PTD. I've read Eric
Greenwell's excellent article on the Soaring Safety Foundation's web
site about the differences, but I need some assistance in deciding
between the two.

The cost difference ($2500 vs. $500) isn't my primary concern. Its
signficant, but since I'm going to keep the glider for awhile its not
dispositive. I can afford one or the other, but not both.

My primary concern is that a transponder won't tell me where other
planes are and how to aovid them and is dependant on me being hooked
into a tower. On the flip side, I'd really, really like the big
planes traveling fast toward Reno approach to know where I am during
my one or two weeks there in the spring.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, John Murphy, N184SS.

John,

I started with the Zaon MRX 2.5 years ago. It was a real eye-opener,
in that I suddenly found out that my scan wasn't detecting anywhere
near the traffic that was out there. Nine months ago I installed a
transponder. I've since watched traffic I was following deviate a bit
to avoid me. Both devices have added markedly to the phrase "see and
be seen".

Now, I fly in an area between Philadelphia, PA and Newark, NJ. To say
it's busy is an understatement. If you were just staying in Alliance,
I'd say you'd be fine with something like the MRX. But at Minden?
Boulder? Get a transponder, too!

What do you figure your life is worth? For about $3000 you can cover
both options.

-John

John Murphy wrote:
> Dear All:
>
> I fly a G102 out of Alliance, Nebraska, for most of the year. Other
> than a daily commercial shuttle flight from Denver, there is almost no
> traffic at the airport or in the area where I soar. There are no
> other gliders at all. However, from time to time I'll come into
> contact with powered traffic, mostly casual fliers, crop dusters, and
> hunters.
>
> A couple times a year I take my glider to other locations, usually in
> areas with a lot more traffic both in terms of other gliders,
> commercial aircraft and general aviation. I've taken my glider to Air
> Sailing, Boulder, and Moriarity, and hope to take it to Minden,
> Parowan and other locations in the near future.
>
> My G102 is in excellent shape, and I've put quite a bit into it. With
> two kids in college and one who just entered third grade (good
> spacing), this glider will be with me for awhile . . . at least 10
> years.
>
> I'm looking at installing either a transponder or PTD. I've read Eric
> Greenwell's excellent article on the Soaring Safety Foundation's web
> site about the differences, but I need some assistance in deciding
> between the two.
>
> The cost difference ($2500 vs. $500) isn't my primary concern. Its
> signficant, but since I'm going to keep the glider for awhile its not
> dispositive. I can afford one or the other, but not both.
>
> My primary concern is that a transponder won't tell me where other
> planes are and how to aovid them and is dependant on me being hooked
> into a tower. On the flip side, I'd really, really like the big
> planes traveling fast toward Reno approach to know where I am during
> my one or two weeks there in the spring.
>
> Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, John Murphy, N184SS.

On Dec 14, 7:37*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> John,
>
> I started with the Zaon MRX 2.5 years ago. It was a real eye-opener,
> in that I suddenly found out that my scan wasn't detecting anywhere
> near the traffic that was out there. Nine months ago I installed a
> transponder. I've since watched traffic I was following deviate a bit
> to avoid me. Both devices have added markedly to the phrase "see and
> be seen".
>
> Now, I fly in an area between Philadelphia, PA and Newark, NJ. To say
> it's busy is an understatement. If you were just staying in Alliance,
> I'd say you'd be fine with something like the MRX. But at Minden?
> Boulder? Get a transponder, too!
>
> What do you figure your life is worth? For about $3000 you can cover
> both options.
>
> -John
>
> John Murphy wrote:
> > Dear All:
>
> > I fly a G102 out of Alliance, Nebraska, for most of the year. *Other
> > than a daily commercial shuttle flight from Denver, there is almost no
> > traffic at the airport or in the area where I soar. *There are no
> > other gliders at all. *However, from time to time I'll come into
> > contact with powered traffic, mostly casual fliers, crop dusters, and
> > hunters.
>
> > A couple times a year I take my glider to other locations, usually in
> > areas with a lot more traffic both in terms of other gliders,
> > commercial aircraft and general aviation. *I've taken my glider to Air
> > Sailing, Boulder, and Moriarity, and hope to take it to Minden,
> > Parowan and other locations in the near future.
>
> > My G102 is in excellent shape, and I've put quite a bit into it. *With
> > two kids in college and one who just entered third grade (good
> > spacing), this glider will be with me for awhile . . . *at least 10
> > years.
>
> > I'm looking at installing either a transponder or PTD. *I've read Eric
> > Greenwell's excellent article on the Soaring Safety Foundation's web
> > site about the differences, but I need some assistance in deciding
> > between the two.
>
> > The cost difference ($2500 vs. $500) isn't my primary concern. *Its
> > signficant, but since I'm going to keep the glider for awhile its not
> > dispositive. *I can afford one or the other, but not both.
>
> > My primary concern is that a transponder won't tell me where other
> > planes are and how to aovid them and is dependant on me being hooked
> > into a tower. *On the flip side, I'd really, really like the big
> > planes traveling fast toward Reno approach to know where I am during
> > my one or two weeks there in the spring.
>
> > Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. *Thanks, John Murphy, N184SS.
>
>

Well try to buy both, and in the big picture a PCAS unit is not that
much more to add to the price of a transponder. It might equate to the
cost of a few long tows or an extra weekend at the gliderport. If you
can't buy both...

You will have to assess what the most critcal risk is, however if you
fly in high traffic areas even for a few weeks a year, with lots of
fast jet traffic nearby I'd say it's no contest, get the transponder
first. Fast jet traffic should be able to avoid you (combination of
controller involvement and TCAS) much better then you avoiding it.
PCAS while great may just not give you such great warning with a fast
jet traffic and you may not see it in time let alone work out what to
do. At least the TCAS in the jets (or most of them) give the pilot a
pretty good idea what to do to avoid you even if they can't see you.

If you fly around the Reno area now hopefully you are following the
Reno approach glider procedures and contacting approach etc. so you'll
be pretty aware of the sickening amount of fast jet traffic in the
area at times. Once you have a transponder you'll be even more aware
of hearing and seeing that traffic being routed around you. And
nothing too quick is likely to happen with ADS-B to supplant your Mode-
C transponder so it remains a good investment for long into the
future.

I would have kind of hoped the culture of flying around Minden and the
Reno area would have impressed how good an idea a transponder was.
Personally I wish they were mandatory in areas around Reno (I don't
want to lose access to those areas because non-transponder equipped
glider is involved in a collision with a passenger jet). We were very
lucky the ASG-29 and Hawker collision involved no fatalities.

Darryl

If you come to Reno, please get the transponder.

Thanks, Bob K.

For the Minden/Air Sailing area...get the transponder. All you have
to do in monitor the Reno approach frequency while you are flying with
the transponder on and you will be impressed with how much effort the
air traffic controllers put in to diverting traffic away from you.

For a mear $500 more, you should have the PDT also.

Now you are a full participant in the air traffic control system!!!

Guy Acheson "DDS"

At 05:53 15 December 2008, wrote:
>For the Minden/Air Sailing area...get the transponder. All you have
>to do in monitor the Reno approach frequency while you are flying with
>the transponder on and you will be impressed with how much effort the
>air traffic controllers put in to diverting traffic away from you.
>
>For a mear $500 more, you should have the PDT also.
>
>Now you are a full participant in the air traffic control system!!!
>
>Guy Acheson "DDS"
>

If you only have a transponder detector it will be like wearing an
invisibilty cloak - you will know where 'they' are, but they won't see
you. Hardly seems fair, does it?

The mid-airs (or major scary moments, if you're lucky) will become
interactions between people who are relying on detectors, but don't
themselves have a xpdr.

Similarly in Europe (and other non-US gliding places), Flarm is gaining
popularity, however, until it is mandatory one can only detect a
relatively small percentage of gliders ( i.e. other Flarm equipped
gliders) and never detect power traffic.

Last summer I came tooooo close to a Lear Jet right over Reno at
12,000 feet. We were both talking to approach control, but neither had
requested flight following. He lit up my PCAS just as I lit up his
TCAS................we exchanged salutations on approach frequency and
went our separate ways. Approach never saw a thing! This little
scenario could have been much different if both of us didn't have
mode C transponder and PCAS/TCAS.
You are taking your life in your hands if you fly around Reno without
a transponder and PCAS.
JJ

On Dec 14, 9:59*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Personally I wish they were mandatory in areas around Reno (I don't
> want to lose access to those areas because *non-transponder equipped
> glider is involved in a collision with a passenger jet). We were very
> lucky the ASG-29 and Hawker collision involved no fatalities.

But the ASG-29 was transponder equipped was it not?

If transponder use becomes mandatory it still does not mean they will
all be turned on, all be squawking mode C, and all reporting the
correct altitude.

I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.

I take my Zaon MRX with me any time I fly including in other people's
aircraft. Once you own one of these you won't want to leave home
without it.

Still don't have a transponder in the glider so I guess I'll stay away
from Reno.

Andy

On Dec 15, 7:46*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 14, 9:59*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > Personally I wish they were mandatory in areas around Reno (I don't
> > want to lose access to those areas because *non-transponder equipped
> > glider is involved in a collision with a passenger jet). We were very
> > lucky the ASG-29 and Hawker collision involved no fatalities.
>
> But the ASG-29 was transponder equipped was it not?
>
> If transponder use becomes mandatory it still does not mean they will
> all be turned on, all be squawking mode C, and all reporting the
> correct altitude.
>
> I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
> a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
> feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.
>
> I take my Zaon MRX with me any time I fly including in other people's
> aircraft. *Once you own one of these you won't want to leave home
> without it.
>
> Still don't have a transponder in the glider so I guess I'll stay away
> from Reno.
>
> Andy

Well your transponder is a safety item so get it fixed. Worse case
replace the encoder, they are not that expensive.

I think everybody who flies with an MRX is greatly impressed with
them. However if you do not have a transponder you really are not
participating in the ATC system. So to the original question,
(especially for Reno) get a transponder first, MRX second if you can't
afford both.

By mandatory I mean mandatory to be turned on and used. The ASG-29 had
the transponder turned off, for what can at best can be described as a
confused set of reasons. Procedures for contacting approach determine
pretty quickly if the transponder is working or not and squawking the
correct altitude. Most new transponders will also display the pressure
altitude so working out if the encoder is working or not is bit of a
non-issue. So what other excuse is left... worries about powering
transponders seem a little strained given modern encoder and
transponder power power consumption, and alternative battery and solar
panel options, especially given the risks involved to the sport (it's
the risk to passenger carrying jets the impact on out sport that I
care about, not the individual glider pilot).

Crossing extremely high traffic corridors near place like Reno, has
nothing to do with flying around the boondocks so who cares if you
have a transponder at many glider sites. If we have another mid-air,
especially with passenger fatalities, I suspect we'll have lots more
restrictions than just requiring transponders in high-traffic areas.

Darryl

One thing you have to remember....just because you have a transponder
doesn't mean that "everyone" will see you or even have any notification that
you are there....Just because "most" G/A aircraft are required to have a
transponders doesn't mean that they have TCAS....or even have radio contact
with ATC....with just a transponder out there blinking away a frequency the
other guy is still as blind as you are.....If you fly anywhere there is
significant traffic...get an MRX TPAS unit....these are still relatively
cheap....tiny no installation required...and portable ...
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
tim



"Peter Wyld" > wrote in message
...
> At 05:53 15 December 2008, wrote:
>>For the Minden/Air Sailing area...get the transponder. All you have
>>to do in monitor the Reno approach frequency while you are flying with
>>the transponder on and you will be impressed with how much effort the
>>air traffic controllers put in to diverting traffic away from you.
>>
>>For a mear $500 more, you should have the PDT also.
>>
>>Now you are a full participant in the air traffic control system!!!
>>
>>Guy Acheson "DDS"
>>
>
> If you only have a transponder detector it will be like wearing an
> invisibilty cloak - you will know where 'they' are, but they won't see
> you. Hardly seems fair, does it?
>
> The mid-airs (or major scary moments, if you're lucky) will become
> interactions between people who are relying on detectors, but don't
> themselves have a xpdr.
>
> Similarly in Europe (and other non-US gliding places), Flarm is gaining
> popularity, however, until it is mandatory one can only detect a
> relatively small percentage of gliders ( i.e. other Flarm equipped
> gliders) and never detect power traffic.

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:46:04 -0800, Andy wrote:

> I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed a
> problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of feet
> in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.

Try a new battery. I had the same symptoms with a Becker + Ameriking
encoder. A new battery made them go away.

Ian

On Dec 16, 12:32*am, Ian > wrote:

> Try a new battery. I had the same symptoms with a Becker + Ameriking
> encoder. A new battery made them go away.

Thanks for the tip but this is a PA28-180 with an alternator. Problem
was intermittent last winter, gone in the summer, and back again now
winter is here. I'm in the middle of some cold soak testing but
results so far point to the encoder (ACK A-30).

Andy

On Dec 15, 7:46*am, Andy > wrote:

> ...I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
> a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
> feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.

Check the encoder manual to see if the encoder has a built-in heating
coil (many do). If so, also check that it is getting power.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Dec 16, 12:53*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Dec 15, 7:46*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > ...I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
> > a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
> > feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.
>
> Check the encoder manual to see if the encoder has a built-in heating
> coil (many do). If so, also check that it is getting power.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

The ACK-30 around room temperature should draw around 9mA/12V once in
steady state. Throw it in your freezer in a plastic bag and get it
really cold, with the heater warming up it should draw about 400mA/12V
(for ~minute or so).

Darryl

Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Dec 16, 12:53 pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
>> On Dec 15, 7:46 am, Andy > wrote:
>>
>>> ...I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
>>> a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
>>> feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.
>> Check the encoder manual to see if the encoder has a built-in heating
>> coil (many do). If so, also check that it is getting power.
>>
>> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> The ACK-30 around room temperature should draw around 9mA/12V once in
> steady state. Throw it in your freezer in a plastic bag and get it
> really cold, with the heater warming up it should draw about 400mA/12V
> (for ~minute or so).

It's not quite that good, unfortunately: according to the manual,
operating current is 60 ma; the time to warm up from 0 F is 210 seconds.
I can't find the source of the numbers, but the heater will continue to
draw heater current at 0 deg F, with a total draw around 90-100 milliamps.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 16, 6:46*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Dec 16, 12:53 pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> >> On Dec 15, 7:46 am, Andy > wrote:
>
> >>> ...I'm quite sensitive to this at the moment as my airplane has developed
> >>> a problem that causes the mode C report to sometimes be thousands of
> >>> feet in error until the transponder or encoder warm up.
> >> Check the encoder manual to see if the encoder has a built-in heating
> >> coil (many do). If so, also check that it is getting power.
>
> >> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> > The ACK-30 around room temperature should draw around 9mA/12V once in
> > steady state. Throw it in your freezer in a plastic bag and get it
> > really cold, with the heater warming up it should draw about 400mA/12V
> > (for ~minute or so).
>
> It's not quite that good, unfortunately: according to the manual,
> operating current is 60 ma; the time to warm up from 0 F is 210 seconds.
> I can't find the source of the numbers, but the heater will continue to
> draw heater current at 0 deg F, with a total draw around 90-100 milliamps..
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Oh doh, that as a typo. Should have been the 90mA no 9mA, which is
what I think I had measured but the manual says 60mA. May just depend
on ambient temp of how power consumption is averaged.

Darryl

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:44:19 -0800, Andy wrote:

> Thanks for the tip but this is a PA28-180 with an alternator. Problem
> was intermittent last winter, gone in the summer, and back again now
> winter is here. I'm in the middle of some cold soak testing but results
> so far point to the encoder (ACK A-30).

I have no experience with aircraft with engines. But it seems these
encoders can put out nonsense flight level data. Your experience -
Winter, mine - dying battery, seem to indicate that it does this when it
is not warm enough.

Whatever the fix, it is worth knowing that this can happen. Does yours
come right once it has been running a while?

Ian